An Honest Conversation About Sex

Transcription Below

Recorded 7/23/2023 Panel Participants: Matt Willis, Sarah Willis, Luke Risser, Ryan Patterson

Questions Answered:

1. Resources in the Sexual Integrity Ministry 0:00

2. Why are we talking about sex at church? 18:50

3. If I've made mistakes, can I still experience God's good plan for my sexuality? 26:35

4. What does healthy sexuality look like? 31:30

5. Am I saved if I still struggle with sexual sin? 32:52

6. Does my sin disqualify me from serving? 37:00

7. Beyond “read the Bible and pray more,” what can I do to break my porn/sex/lust addiction? 41:50

8. Is there hope for a loving, trusting marriage after sexual betrayal?

9. I’m a parent and I struggle with how to talk about these things with my children. 57:00

10. Is pursuing freedom worth the pain? 1:20:00

11. Why doesn't God heal me when I pray? 1:21:00

Ryan Patterson: The few of us still making our way in. Hi, guys. What's going on? It's good to be with you guys this evening. These are fun nights. Number one, you're gonna have to bear with my voice if I go hoarse or crack in my voice as though I'm still going through puberty. It's because three services, um, uh, in preaching, man can really, really take it out of you. So thank you guys for coming back this evening. These are really sweet nights. You know, panel discussions and Sunday evening services historically at FCBC have kind of tended to have this, kind of family feel. So this is just a really informal time for us to be able to sit down as a church body and continue the conversation. That, Lord willing, was somewhat started this morning through the preaching of God's Word. By raise of hand was everybody here this morning? So this isn't going to be like what is this event for? If you happen to miss this morning I had the privilege of preaching. Ephesians 5:1-14, which deals with some pretty heavy stuff, particularly as it pertains to sexual immorality, impurity, and covetousness. And so we thought, man, what an awesome opportunity for us to kind of just continue the conversation. Um, as a church and as a family.

Ryan Patterson: And so a number of weeks ago, we put that out there with, um, an email address fcbcintegrity@gmail.com, and asked for some questions to come in, and you guys showed up for that, which is awesome. So we have a number of questions that we're going to try and get through. So I just want to kind of set the expectation for the evening. And I think the first expectation to set is that this is not going to be exhaustive. I hope that you're coming in already expecting that. But if not, I want to help you set your expectation because sex and sexuality is a complex and large conversation. There are things going on in culture that require quite a bit of, I think, good thought, deep thought, biblical thoughtfulness. That man, if we had ten hours, which we're not going to go, I promise we're going to try to keep this thing to an hour, hour and a half. But even if we had ten hours, I don't think we could cover all of it. And hopefully you got one thing this morning, and that is that we as human beings are complex in our brokenness and praise God that he isn't confused by our condition. He isn't caught off guard by our brokenness.

Ryan Patterson: He knows how to speak to each and every one of us in our situations. And so this evening is just going to be just a time to answer some of the questions that we've had come in and interact with those in real time. Um, and, and again, hopefully you guys know that we're not experts, but we just love the body of Christ, and we want to see us all pursuing holiness and righteousness, specifically as it pertains to this area of sex and sexuality. So thank you for coming. Hopefully that kind of helps to set some expectations. Um, I'm going to pray for our time. And then I'm going to introduce you to Matt Willis, who is heading up our sexual integrity ministry, and let him tell you a little bit about himself and the ministry and, and just tell you a little bit about his story. So let me pray for us. Heavenly father, we thank you, Lord, for your mercy and your grace to us. God, what a joy we had this morning. Lord, just being reminded that because of the finished work of Christ. We can have hope, Lord, and that sin doesn't have the final say over our lives because of Jesus. But God, we're here because we are no strangers to the fight.

Ryan Patterson: Lord, we, um, we're fighting for holiness. We're fighting and waging war against our sin. And and that can become wearisome. And so, God, I pray that you would, um, Lord, through our discussion this evening, that you would give us a real sense of your peace, Lord, and of your rest that is offered to us in the gospel of Christ. Lord, a very real sense of your spirit who is illuminating our hearts to Jesus Christ, who is taking our gaze and pointing it squarely at Jesus and giving, giving us a reason and a hope to continue and to endure and to press on in love and in good works. God, I pray that we would see the beauty of your design for intimacy and your design for sex between two people? God, I pray that we would glory in your wisdom and glory in your beauty and glory in your grand design, Lord, and that we would all grow because of it. And so, Lord, we just praise you, and we thank you for the hope that lies within us that is not putting us to shame. Lord, we pray these things in Jesus name. Amen. Matt, I'm going to turn it over to you. Introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about the ministry and a little bit about your story.

Matt Willis: I appreciate it, Ryan. As Ryan mentioned, my name is Matt Willis, director of the Men's Sexual Integrity Ministry here at Faith Community Bible Church. 12 years old, became addicted to pornography. It was not my intent. Stumbled upon it out of complete innocence and didn't know how to deal with that. Where to go for that? Nowhere quite felt safe. No one felt safe. So I did the only thing I knew how to do. I prayed and prayed and prayed something on the lines of Lord, please heal me. Please deliver me. There was definitely some bargaining, Lord, if you will heal me, I will do whatever you ask. That addiction lasted over a decade. Every single day there was a struggle. Every single day there was repentance. There was prayer. There was "God, why haven't you delivered me? Am I beyond your grasp? Am I not called? What am I doing wrong?" And what I did learn was, if I allow anyone to know about this, I'm going to be shamed. The love that I do have, that I do experience, it's going to evaporate. And so with that addiction to Pornography developed an addiction to lying, to cover it up, to manipulating conversation to avoid going deep. Over a decade, I tried to do it in my own strength. I tried to do it by praying alone. Didn't help. It went from bad to worse. I asked a pastor, okay, what do I do? And he said, just read the Bible and pray even more. So I did that hour a day, uh, reading the Bible. Zero accountability with that, but still did it because I was eager and desperate.

Matt Willis: 20 minutes praying every day, largely for deliverance. Nothing. Sarah and I met while we were in high school, in the thick of the addiction. While we were engaged, she asked me directly, is pornography something you've ever looked at? Stumbled upon? And I used the only defense mechanism I had. I lied through my teeth. But then a year into marriage, a miracle happened. Now I'm going to pause the story for a moment. I think so often people, myself included at a young age, assume Satan's temptation of us is haphazard. It's not. Satan has a number of playbooks that he runs like clockwork. Now, in over a decade worth of addiction and many years worth of being in the journey of healing, pursuing freedom, and now being in a position where I have the opportunity to connect with men who share this struggle. What I have learned is for one of the playbooks that Satan has, that he uses for a lot of men is he uses our emotions which are good, godly things, but twist them into triggers for bad things. So for example, a playbook. Step one start by degrading sex, which is the pinnacle of human intimacy to pornography. Step two ensure as many people are exposed to it at the youngest age possible, ideally before puberty. In that way, they go pursuing the dopamine that comes with the high of pursuing that with the emotions they're feeling while their emotions are at their height. Step three make it into the pretend-solution for a variety of emotions.

Matt Willis: For example, stressed hard day of work. That's a quick way to escape. Feeling alone and like nobody really cares for you? Boom! Instant access. Feeling like life is futile. Boom. Instant distraction. See, part of why it has such a strong grip on so many people is because it twists itself in our mind to be a pretend solution for real emotions that we are feeling. Step four add a few traumatizing experiences to convince us that it is not safe to confess to other people. I know I have a few of those, and I would imagine that most people who struggle do too. Step five Hypersexualize society so that you can't escape it. Temptation is everywhere. And then it feels like, how could I possibly experience victory? Because one I haven't up until this point and two, triggers are everywhere. How do you escape that? Satan has a playbook. But here's the thing. Here's what I didn't realize at the time because no one around me was talking about it. God has a playbook too. Now, don't get me wrong, I was reading the Bible and praying more as was instructed. The problem was Scripture talks specifically about what it takes to pursue freedom. I was reading the Bible. I wasn't implementing core verses that are really behind what God says is the prescription to pursue healing, and we'll get more into that in a little bit. But fast forward, we actually just celebrated our ten year anniversary by the grace of God. Now what was that miracle one year into marriage? I'll tell you what it wasn't.

Matt Willis: It wasn't God finally answering my prayer and the next day I woke up and there was never any temptation. Just over one year into marriage, exposure happened. The Lord let it be revealed to my wife the full extent of what was going on in my life. It was only after exposure that I began taking my sin seriously, and began desperately searching for okay, where can I find healing? The Lord worked through that exposure. If that exposure never happened now, mind you, that exposure there, I would have died rather than have my wife find out about that. But that exposure was what ultimately led to me getting connected into recovery groups and being able to experience the gospel of Christ in a small group of guys who also struggled. So there was accountability. There was no shame. As I was sharing not only my past struggles, but also current struggles. But it wasn't okay. That's fine. Not a big deal. There was encouragement as well as reflection on Scripture, as well as reflection on the way that God has made us, and how sin rewires our brain, and how we can wire it back to how God intended. That's part of why I get so passionate about this topic, because I felt utterly and completely trapped in it. I felt like there was nothing I could do and who God created me to be felt like it was being squashed. So yeah, that's who I am. That's why I'm up here and honored by the opportunity. So I'm going to go ahead and pass it over to my incredible, long-suffering wife.

Sarah Willis: Good evening friends. I'm Sarah, married to this handsome man right here. I'm so thankful to be here and I'm so thankful for you guys as our church body. You have just been such a blessing in our lives, and I feel like our hearts are just truly knit with yours. So thank you for letting us be here. My husband's betrayal has revealed to me my own self-righteousness, and it has given me a much more beautiful picture of the gospel than I ever would have had, apart from our painful journey. When I found myself 22 years old, married to a sexual addict and a compulsive liar, I felt betrayed not only by my husband, but by the Lord. And if I'm honest with you all, I felt like God owed me a happy marriage and a healthy sex life because I had followed his commands to wait for marriage. And I looked around at friends who hadn't done that and felt like their marriages were better than mine. And so I felt anger with the Lord. But as I continually just felt the wounds of that betrayal, the Lord began to reveal more of his heart to me. It felt like as I brought to him the broken pieces of my heart, he extended out to me the broken pieces of his heart and the stories about the Israelites, specifically in Hosea, how they were an unfaithful bride to the Lord, just began to convict me and leap out at me all the ways that I pursued satisfaction in things other than the Lord, and broke his heart, just began to break me.

Sarah Willis: In addition to that, the Lord just gave me the ability to see Matt as my brother in Christ, even when I couldn't see him as the love of my life or as a trustworthy companion. And he convicted me to just pray with courage over him and to fight for him. And so we're up here tonight just as a testimony of the slow, faithful work of God in our lives. And we're not experts in any of this, but we just want to be willing to go first and vulnerability so that no one else here has to suffer in this way alone. Because the Lord delights in restoring broken things and in using our brokenness for his glory. And so, just as the saying goes, we're a couple of blind beggars up here trying to show other beggars where we've found food.

Luke Risser: Well, my name is Luke Reser, and I have the privilege of working with Matt and Sarah in the Sexual Integrity ministry, and, um, I think Sarah couldn't have put it better. That's that's who I. Who I am is just another one of those beggars. I got into porn when I was 14, and it's been a very long, frustrating, painful journey. And it's it's the hardest sin struggle I've ever wrestled with, for sure. And I guess, there's a lot of my story that I could share, you know, I'll, you know, lying goes with it, you know, and so and I've hurt my wife tremendously through this whole process, and, um, but I guess I just I just want to encourage anybody out there right now who's struggling that the gospel is bigger than our sin. And, and the process of bringing that struggle out into the light is when healing could begin. And, it's very counter counterintuitive, you know, it's like it's it's too dangerous to do that, you know? Um, but that's how that's how God set it up. We have to be we have to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God, and he will exalt us. You know, a broken and contrite spirit he will not despise. That's that's who he wants to come to him. Or people who know that they are sick and in need of a doctor. So that's what we're doing here. We're going first, and we hope that you will, be inspired to do the same.

Matt Willis:  Thank you. Luke. One more thing I want to share about Luke. He's been a phenomenal resource to the ministry, specifically from a diving into Scripture standpoint. He actually wrote a brief study on the passage that we went through today. He wrote it. We delivered it to the elders, and they took that into consideration as they were building the message. And if any of you are interested in reading it, it's, I think, two and a half pages, but it's phenomenal. Email me. My email address is on the men's ministry page. It's fantastic. But he's been a phenomenal resource. Uh, I'm going to start off the first question asking to Ryan. Why are we talking about this at church?

Ryan Patterson: I know right? Yikes. Well, number one, I would second what you just said about Luke. That was such a wonderful resource and something I referred to over the week. Why are we talking about sex at church? Um, man, I think there's there's three somewhat simple answers to that that we could expound on. And we'll I'll try to expand on a little bit. Um, I think number one, we're talking about it, Matt, because God talks about it. Um, God talks a lot about sex, and he's unashamed to do so. I mean, I think that, um, sex is baked into the very fabric of who we are and how we live. There's biological sex that's baked directly into our DNA and our makeup. And then there is the actual act of sex, which is this unifying, beautiful display of the gospel that we see right from the beginning of Scripture. As a matter of fact. Um, I think let me just see here. Genesis four one. Um, right here at the beginning of the story. Yeah, it's Genesis four, verse one. It says, now Adam knew Eve, his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain. And what's interesting about that is that the Hebrew word for for no, they're the root word is um, it's actually a similar root word that pops up throughout the Old Testament. It pops up quite a bit, actually, in the Psalms, and it has less to do with the actual act of sex, though.

Ryan Patterson: It's talking about that in that passage, but it has more that root word. It has more to do with intimacy. And so I think sometimes, um, we, we put such an emphasis on sex and sexuality that we reduce sex down to simply just an activity, when really sex is a picture of the gospel in the sense that it has to do with intimacy. And that's an important distinction, and one that I think Scripture makes, quite a bit throughout the story of redemption. It's more than just procreation and population. And so, I think one answer why are we talking about sex at church is because God talks about it, because God's not embarrassed to talk about it. Um, we get to see that sex is a picture of God's intended intimacy with his own people. Now, I understand we can take that imagery way too far, but I think it shows that God has baked right into the fabric of of our humanity a level of intimacy with him. I think sex is a picture of that oneness and that closeness that God graciously designed for us. I think another reason why we're having this conversation, a couple other reasons, um, is because possibly the church either hasn't had the conversation at all or because we haven't had the conversation well. I think due to the nature of the topic, the church tends to shy away from it. It's embarrassing.

Ryan Patterson: It's maybe taboo. Or if we haven't shied away from it, we've handled it, um, in a pretty extremely reductionistic sense, similar to what I would say purity culture did in the church, where it was reduced down to this simple notion that if you can save yourself for marriage, as Sarah was talking about, if you can just not have intercourse prior to getting married, then you have like the gold star of God's blessing when it comes to sex. And Sarah, thank you so much for just being like, so brave and honest and sharing what happens when sin gets in the way of that. And so I think, I think there's a reductionistic nature to the church's conversation around sex. It's saying, man, men are like these ravenous beasts whose lust is only slaked in marriage, and therefore girls ought to be ready for that intense, pressurized sexual environment in order to keep their husbands pure. And I think that's not helpful. I don't think that's helpful. I think that the purity culture did a couple of things well, like trying to bring up the the conversation surrounding sex and sexuality, but I think it had some bad theology about it which centered itself on approaches and not so much the gospel. and so I think God's good plan for sexual intimacy and why it matters is a conversation that the church should be having and should be having in spades. because like we said this morning, while this isn't any less, this isn't a conversation that's less than porn.

Ryan Patterson: It is a conversation that's more than porn. And there is sexual brokenness in marriages. There are sexually broken people in marriages. We bring our sin to the table. And in that sin, there's a lot of trauma. There's a lot of fear. There's a lot of shame. I mean, I think the church has said, you know, for so long, for example. And we'll talk a little bit about this, I think when we talk about talking through this with, with children, where in one sense the church has said especially to our kids, don't have sex, don't have sex, don't have sex, don't have sex, don't have sex, don't have sex. And then they get married and it's like, okay, now go for it. And they're like, what? What do I do here? What does that even mean? How do I actually love my spouse in this way? Do is there even a difference in my mind between the activity of sex and the notion that sex is really just a means to intimacy and true intimacy? What's beautiful about the conversation surrounding sex, and why I say it reflects the gospel, is because you have two people who are totally exposed before one another. We talk about this. My wife and I talk about this quite a bit in our premarital sessions. You have two people who are totally exposed before one another seeing everything flaws, seeing, seeing all of the other person.

Ryan Patterson: And in in a very similar sense, in the gospel, we are fully exposed before the Lord, and he sees us. And there's a there's a nature of unconditional love that is in that moment that says, I love you no matter what. I love you. You're beautiful to me. I love the broken parts of you. I love every piece and every part of you. And so I think that matters. I think it's important for the church to begin to help shape the thinking that says sex is a lot more than just this biological act. It has so much more to do with intimacy than it does with anything else. And then I'd also say maybe like a fourth bonus reason is that there's no neutrality in this conversation. You can't just not have it because it's uncomfortable to have, because if you're not having the conversation, you can be sure that culture is. And so if we're quiet on the issue of sex, especially when it comes to our children or our brothers and our sisters in Christ, there's going to be another voice coming into the conversation. And we want the gospel. We want the Word of God and the glory of Christ that actually has an answer to our shame and to our guilt, to have the fullest and most authoritative word into that conversation. We don't want to leave it to secularism.

Matt Willis: The next question, we're going to direct this one towards Sarah. The question is, I'd love to hear some guidance and insight regarding when both husband and wife have sexual history with other people prior to marriage and exposure to pornography in younger years. My husband and I were not raised in Christian homes, and so we both came into our marriage with these experiences. Now, as believers, it has been hard to understand what it's supposed to look like, be like in marriage, and to have a pure view of sex. Since that was our foundation, I'm not even totally sure what my question is, but I am just wondering how to better understand what a sexual relationship within marriage is supposed to look like. It's a phenomenal question.

Sarah Willis: Yeah, I love this question because I think it gets to the heart of why we're here. And if I think it breaks down into two questions you're asking, really, the first one is, if I've made mistakes, can I still experience God's good plan for my sexuality and what Ryan just said? If we believe that the gospel can permeate our sexuality, then the answer is a resounding yes you can. Do you not think that the God who has designed our brains can rewire them back to the way they're supposed to be, or that the God who has designed our sexuality can restore to us what has been lost and broken. And if there's anyone here who's believing this lie, can I just speak over you right now that your sexual mistakes do not downgrade you to God's Plan B for your life. It is precisely your brokenness that he wants to use. If Matt and I can be a testimony of anything, it's that that he is using our sexual brokenness for his glory. And so don't let the devil convince you of that lie that you're experiencing God's second best for you. If you've messed up in this way because there can be redemption. He can make things more beautiful than you could ever imagine. And we just we want to speak to that in our own lives. and then the second part of your question, I think, is a really complicated one.

Sarah Willis: You're asking, what does healthy, holy sexuality look like? And there's obviously no way that we could answer that in a few minutes up here, let alone a lifetime of trying to unpack this. But I think at the end of the day, if as believers, our experience of sexuality is not that different than the culture's experience of sexuality, or even worse, and I think very common. If we look at the culture and we wonder to ourselves, are they experiencing a better version of sexuality than we are? Are they having more fun? Are they experiencing more freedom? Then i think we've just severely missed what God's good design is for us. The Bible, it starts with the story of a wedding between a man and a woman, made in God's image. And it ends with the wedding feast of the lamb, which is a picture of us, the bride marrying Christ. And I think our sexual relationships and marriage are supposed to be a reflection of that and point us to that even as we continue our study through Ephesians. Just pay attention to how many times when Paul talks about husbands and wives, he says, But I'm actually talking about Christ in the church. This is all supposed to reflect Christ in the church and the gospel.

Sarah Willis: I love how author Christopher West puts it. He says the Bible can pretty much be summed up in five words. God wants to marry us, and he's created marriage between a man and a woman to be a reflection of this. He's literally etched in our bodies, our male and female bodies. A picture of the gospel when the two become one flesh. And if you want to know what is most sacred in life, just look for what is most profoundly distorted. Look for what the devil just tries to twist. And I think there's no area more twisted and distorted than our sexuality. I think pornography is the epitome of this. I think the devil, his goal is always to separate body and soul, because this is this is what death is. And so engaging in pornography is literally stripping someone of the wholeness of who they are and seeing them for just an image without a soul. But the good news is that Christ has come to breathe life back into our dead sexuality and that again. I mean, if you hear nothing else tonight, I hope you hear the gospel in all of this. So I think as a church, we have a lot of shifting through the muck and the distorted lies to do. But I think when all the smoke has cleared, the deepest meaning and purpose behind our sexuality is to point us to and prepare us for that wedding day with the lamb.

Sarah Willis: But answering what this looks like on a practical level, in singleness and in marriage is complex. And that is why Matt and I have both just become huge advocates for sexual discipleship. Now, how many of you, when you became believers, were sexually discipled by another believer? Yes. And yet, if this is the most profound image that God has given us of his love for us and his desire to be united with us and to conceive eternal life in us, I think there's no area where we need discipleship more. And so I'm just going to recommend a couple books. The first one is called Our Bodies Tell God's Story by Christopher West. And the second one is God, Sex and Your Marriage by Doctor Juli Slattery. And I'm just if I can encourage you to find an older believer to go through these books with and just ask them to disciple you in this way. I think the church is going to be hugely blessed by starting these conversations, especially in this culture that we're living in. We're being discipled by the culture, whether we realize it or not. And so it's time that we really start discipling each other in what does godly, holy sexuality look like?

Ryan Patterson: So I think the next, next question, Sarah, that was so profoundly put. Thank you so much. really simple question in Luke. I think this is for maybe for you to answer. It says, am I saved if I still struggle with sexual.

Luke Risser: Well, this is a very natural and fair question to ask, especially in light of the passage that we we were listening to Ryan preach on this morning. clearly when we look at Scripture, we see how seriously God takes all sin, but especially sexual sin, because it involves our spirits, our body, our soul, like every part of us is, is involved in that. We sin against ourselves when we sin sexually. And, um, so so God takes it really seriously, right? And we all know that. Um, and one of one of the things that leaders and, speakers on this topic are tempted to do is to give people maybe a false sense of security where it's like, yeah, like you are You're still saved, right? Everyone struggles, which is true. Um. You know, but I don't want to do that because Paul. Paul doesn't seem to want to do that in this passage. Right? What he's trying to do is he's trying to awaken our sense of our awareness of our own sin. Right. I use the example of an analogy of a surgeon. Right. He takes a scalpel and it's extremely sharp. It's razor sharp. And he cuts into the the diseased parts of our minds because he's trying to cut out the bad parts. Right. So that's what you know. We don't want to dull his blade by saying something that he's not trying to say. So my question, I guess, is, how can you have confidence that you're saved if you're still struggling with sexual sin? Well, one thing I would ask is when you sin sexually and it's secret and no one catches you and you've gotten away with it, quote unquote.

Luke Risser: Are you able to continue on and do nothing about it? Are you able to just let it go and keep living life, or do you feel this incredible weight of guilt on you? And, you know, Psalm chapter 32 is a psalm written by David. And and this is scholars say that this psalm was written after his sin with Bathsheba, and he's silent. He doesn't confess his sin. And what it does is it just wrecks him. He talks about it as bones are wasting away, and he's drying up like he's in a desert, and God's hand is heavy upon him with conviction. And what gives him relief is finally confessing his sin to God and to others. And only then can the process of healing truly begin. So I guess my question is when you sin secretly and the sin is still secret, do you feel that weight or are you not bothered by it? If you're not bothered by it, you should be concerned because the Holy Spirit might not be dwelling in you and convicting you of sin. If that's true. You should be concerned for your eternal fate. But if you do feel that conviction and you confess your sin, and you and you know the thing about the Christian life is it's this constant coming back to the gospel, coming back to Jesus in repentance and faith and sanctification is progressive, and it happens over time and it's a process. So just because you're struggling with any kind of sin doesn't mean that you're not his child. The question is, what do you do when you sin?

Matt Willis:  Thank you Luke. The next question, I'll turn this one over to you, Ryan. Does my sexual sin disqualify me from serving?

Ryan Patterson: I think there's there's probably nuance to the answer. And the simple answer is no and yes, depending. So no, I mean, certainly I think it's I have to probably tie that answer pretty closely. To what? To how Luke just answered that question. And that is if you were repentant. If you're repentant, if you're pursuing Christ, if you love Christ, if you're in a fellowship and a community with other believers where they know you and you know them, and you're living the gospel out in front of each other. If our sin, be it sexual, be it greed, be it just a general lack of faith disqualified us from serving. We'd have nobody to serve on Sunday morning. There'd be zero of us to be able to serve. Myself included. So no, in that sense, no, it does not disqualify us from serving. On the other hand, I would say again, I just kind of mimicking what Luke said. If you are living with your sin in a way where you are going unbothered and what you find is that what people are seeing about you in your service is not actually you. It's a facade. It's a mask. It's not true. then I would say a why are you serving. Number one why why are you wanting to serve? Might be the better question. and b, it's not the activity that the Lord honors.

Ryan Patterson: It's the heart. So to that person, I'd want to say, hey, we want you serving. But more than we want you serving. We want your heart captivated by the gospel. And the way your heart is captivated by the gospel, is walking in the freedom of repentance. And so repent and believe the gospel all over again, and serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. I'd say if there were some nuance to that, to that question, I do think that there are certain sexual sins that are disqualifying for pastors and for elders that God takes seriously. Scripture is pretty clear that one of the qualifications of being an elder is that you are a one woman man. And so I do think that the sin of adultery and infidelity is a can be a disqualifying factor. But I want to make something really clear and that is this even if your sexual sin were to disqualify you from ministry, it doesn't have to disqualify you from the kingdom of God in Christ. And I think that's really important. I think we live in a culture of iconic and celebrity pastoral status and just leadership status in general. And so we put all of our stock in these, men and women who are just sinners at best, and expect them to kind of be this Messiah, and then are completely overwhelmed and devastated when they make a train wreck of their life and their faith.

Ryan Patterson: And I think that speaks to a deeper issue of how we view sin in the life of a person. And I think it speaks to a deeper issue of the kind of church culture that we've maybe allowed in American evangelicalism. And so I would just say, this, man, I would be so blessed to see if somebody in any kind of service in the church realized, oh, no, I think I have some sin that I need to seriously deal with. Step down in honesty and in transparency and in vulnerability for the glory of Christ, because they're more concerned about God's glory than they are their own reputation. As an example to the church of what it looks like to have your heart captured by the gospel, than to continue to, put on platitudes that everything's going okay. So that's how I would say that. I'd say, does it disqualify you? Generally, no. Can it disqualify you? Sure. Um, are you a repentant person, loving Christ more than you, love yourself more than you love your reputation, and more than you love your ministry.

Matt Willis: Love it. The next question I'm actually really excited about. And so I'm going to answer it beyond read the Bible and pray more. What can I do to break my porn, sex, or lust addiction? We've talked a lot about, you know, the heavy weight of sexual sin, and there is heavy weight to be felt about it. But what happens when we feel that heavy weight, but we lack any level of practical steps of how to pursue healing that can be super defeating. It's like, okay, so I step down from my position, but now what? So I am going to turn our attention to first John one five. And I'm going to lay out three very practical steps from Scripture, two of which come from this passage. Um, as far as what pursuing healing, because that's ultimately what is behind any form of addiction is a need for healing. So first John one starting at verse five, this is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. Pause. verse seven. But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another. How often particularly for guys. But frankly, this category, if you will, of sin is so isolating that how often do we long for real friends community that we do more than just watch football with, but actually know us to the core of our being? That is a vital part of the human experience.

Matt Willis: That's a vital part of being a church. And yet it says right here in First John, what it takes to truly have fellowship with one another. And that is walk in the light. And I can tell you from personal experience, one of the things that kept me in the dark was not having that fellowship with other believers on a real level. We must walk in the light. Let's continue reading verse eight. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Verse nine if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Okay, boom! Cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Is that not what we want? Sexual sin. Other sin? That's part of the sanctifying process. Sexual sin. It's not one of those you're in or you're out just like any other sin. It's a healing process. It's a sanctification process. Don't we want to be healed from our sin? And yet it tells us right there what is required if we confess our sins. Now, let me ask, who is John writing to? Was he writing to me personally? No, I wasn't alive yet. Was he writing to any individual? No, he was writing to the church.

Matt Willis: What John is saying here is if we confess to each other. Yes, confessing to God is of vital importance, but confessing to each other is what ultimately is going to lead to the forgiveness of our sins, along with, again, Christ, but also the building up of the fellowship that we so desperately crave. So we received another question specifically around confession and wanted clarification on, okay, are we talking when we're talking about the importance of confession or exposing our sin, or are we talking about exposing it to God? Are we talking about exposing it to if there's a spouse in the picture to the spouse, or are we talking about to others in the church? So I'm going to take each of those one by one, exposing it to God. God already knows. However, Scripture makes it clear we are called to confess, not only confess acknowledging that we did something, but also repent. That means turn away from it and pursue the Lord. Yes, we confess to the Lord. Now I'm going to skip over to talking about to one another. John talks about it right here. The vital importance of confessing with one another. Now, the challenge, obviously, is it can be so hard to know. Okay, if I were to tell someone that I'm struggling with fill in the blank, are they going to shame me or give me the response that Ryan impersonated the gasp? You struggle with this. It's like, how do you know it can take time to build up to that level of trust, to be willing to confide in a person of your sin? And I'm not saying that you shouldn't build up to that.

Matt Willis: However, that is one of the core tenets of why the sexual integrity exists. These are a group of broken people. On one side, we have people who are struggling with the sin, and on another side, people who are struggling because their spouse betrayed them. These people all can relate to where you have been. They're not going to. You did what? No. We're all in it together. We are all at a place where we're going to connect with each other in confidentiality and encouraging each other. No shame, no judgment. We are all there to pursue healing. That is a safe expression of confessing our sins within the body of Christ. That is what these groups are all about, manifesting the gospel within the context of sexual sin. Marriage, now going back to what about within marriage? Within marriage, the goal, the purpose of marriage is to reflect. And this is the mystery in the passage that Ryan was reading and preaching on today. The mystery of the gospel is that Jesus wants to marry his broken church. And that is exactly what marriage within a man and a woman is supposed to reflect. Now, how are we going to have unity? Just like Christ wants with his church? How are we going to have unity within our marriage? If there is a secret, especially a secret that is wreaking havoc on our unity, whether we're aware of it or not? So is it of importance? Yes.

Matt Willis: If we want to promote unity and therefore have our marriage fulfill the purpose that God instituted marriage for? Yes, it's vitally important that both spouses are intimately aware of who they are fighting against the evil one, as well as what they are fighting for their marriage. I put it this way If, let's say in our example, in the midst of my struggle, my addiction, if I am going to leave the back door to the house open of our marriage, knowing that there is a lion prowling about seeking to destroy our marriage and us individually, don't I at least if I'm going to be the one opening the door, don't I at least owe it to my wife to let her know? Hey, I should have protected our marriage. I have failed in this way and give her the opportunity to do what steps she needs to take to seek healing, to seek protection, and to the extent that she can to protect our marriage. Of course, there are times, and I will say as a caveat, there are times, especially early on in the disclosure process where sin is coming forth. There are certainly times where the betrayed spouse will say, I don't want to know. I can't bear the weight. And we need to create space for that. We also need to acknowledge, though, that healing as a unit is going to require healing on the individual level, but also healing of the unit as a whole. So if for a time, accountability happens exclusively, like in my case in a group of other guys, and I don't confess to my wife if that is what she requests, not me, but she.

Matt Willis: Then there's a level of that's fine, but both parties should be working toward unity in every area of life, especially sex, which is supposed to be a celebration of that unity. So three levels or three types of confession, all of which have vital importance. Now the third. So community confession. The third, I would say, is understanding. I've been a part of groups in which it's like we all sit in a circle. Hey, what did you do this week? Okay, let's pray about it. Honest to goodness, more harm was done than good because we just kind of got used to allowing ourselves like there was no encouragement and there was no further understanding of how God wired us, created us, and how what the healing journey looks like if we have a trigger of loneliness. What are we going to do about it? Because I can speak from experience, in the midst of feeling some of these emotions, some of these triggers, I'm not consciously thinking, how am I going to mess up today? Literally, in the thick of addiction, I could have been reading the Bible one minute, one minute later acting out in sexual sin. It is imperative that we understand who we are fighting against and how Satan has rewired our brains, and how we can wire them back by the grace of God through the gospel, through doing what Scripture says, as we've been laying out tonight.

Luke Risser: Can I just offer one little thing? So on, on the on the matter of confessing to God our sins. Why should we do that? Because he already knows, right? Um, well, that word confession essentially means agree with. So when we confess our sins to God, we are standing aside and looking at our sin with God and saying, that's a problem. That's against your design, that's against your character. I agree with you, God, that this is a problem and that that does two things. It it brings us to a poverty of spirit. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of God. And it humbles us and melts us so that God can reform us into what he wants us to be.

Ryan Patterson: So I appreciate that. It sounds like you're. I mean, it sounds like you're saying, like, we need to be active participants in our sanctification. Yeah. Yeah, man. What do you give us the grace to do that? Um. That's so important. Sarah. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. Um, I'd love to hear from you on this. One of the questions says, and you kind of already alluded to this, but, man, it was so good. I want to hear more about it. It says, is it possible to rebuild marriage or trust after sexual betrayal?

Sarah Willis: Absolutely. Remember what God we serve. He's in the business of making everything new. And I can tell you with just confidence that there's no marriage that he cannot redeem. I was so sure for so many years that my decision to stay married to Matt meant that I would never feel loved or cherished or desired again. And yet, God has done infinitely more than I asked or imagined. In that I can honestly tell you I feel more loved by this man than I ever have, that I'm more in love with him than I've ever been, and that even better, I experienced the love of our perfect bridegroom and have a deeper love for him than I ever have before because of what we've gone through. Now, I know marriages that have not experienced redemption here on this side of heaven, and I don't know why. Sometimes God doesn't answer our really good prayers for healing. But I just want to say something. And I wrote this down, so I'm going to read it because I don't want to butcher it. But no one who accepts God's invitation will miss out on the complete redemption awaiting us at the wedding feast of the lamb. Marriage on earth is just a reflection of the true and better thing to come, and none of us will miss out on that true and better thing if we are in Christ. Now trust is kind of a whole nother ball game.

Sarah Willis: Trust doesn't get rebuilt overnight, and there may be seasons in your marriage where it's not wise to trust your spouse. But that's where I think you can put your trust in God that he will fight for you, that he will be faithful to you, that he will bring to the light what has been hidden in the dark. And let me just speak for a second to maybe any of those who have, who have been the ones who have betrayed their spouse. Trust is not something that is healed just with time. Time will grow the seeds that you plant, and so you need to be planting those seeds of honesty and broken confession to your spouse. And I know just from hearing Matt's experience, it was so tempting for him to protect me from that pain. But you cannot be a buffer between any wave that is going to throw your spouse into the Rock of ages, even if you're the one causing those waves. Because at the end of the day, what you both need is to be thrown into Christ. And so be willing to be honest, even if it hurts your spouse, because those are the seeds that, over time, are going to rebuild trust. I can tell you that from experience. Once again thinking I would never trust him again, but I, I do because he has faithfully planted those seeds of honesty, even when it's really hurt.

Ryan Patterson: Awesome. Thank you.

Matt Willis: Okay, the next question I am a parent and I struggle with how to talk about things, these things with my children. What advice do you have?

Ryan Patterson:  Well, as a parent of three, a ten year old and an eight year old and a six year old. I would start by saying, just first of all, as awkward and as hard as it is, just start. Start somewhere. Have the conversation and don't wait. Um, engaging in the conversation about sex and intimacy and God's good plan and design for sex and intimacy with our children is is paramount. Because you're not just telling them bad things to avoid, you're building in them a sexual ethic to rejoice in. I think that's really important. Man is we are so tempted to come, especially at a topic like this, from the negative, totally forgetting that God has a good and glorious plan worth celebrating with our children from the positive. I think there's a number of reasons why that is. I think fear gets in the way And Paul is really clear in Romans 14. That which does not proceed from faith is sin. And so if it's fear that's getting in the way, just know this. You have nothing to fear in Christ. You can start that conversation, I think, if you need help starting that conversation. I really appreciated what Sarah said earlier. Finding an older saint who has walked this road with their children and gleaning from their wisdom. I'm looking at a number of really wise saints, older saints who've been in the the the progression of sanctification way longer than I have, whom I desperately need, their wisdom and their insight and I'm so thankful for.

Ryan Patterson: And so I would say, um, glean from their wisdom. Um, but yeah, I think that we are so scared to have the conversation with with our kids, possibly because the conversation was never had with us. And there's probably a really good chance if you are, Um. And if you are somewhere between your 20s and your 40s or mid 40s, where that conversation wasn't really a conversation that was had in the home, um, oftentimes for parents. Uh, I know that ignorance can feel like bliss. It's like, I don't want to know. And I just would feel a lot better if I didn't know. But again, that's not an option when you realize that your primary job as a parent is to disciple your children, and that includes sexual discipleship. God has entrusted these children to us to help frame out for them really a worldview, and especially as they are in a culture and especially in the you know, it's been said, um, that that this is the most sexualized, uh, society in history that we've ever lived in. I don't know if I agree with that. I mean, the Greco-Roman society was, was, was pretty sexualized, pretty publicly sexualized at that.

Ryan Patterson: But what I do think is unique about 2023 and the world in which we live is that it is certainly the most information, transferable society that we've ever lived in. And that's a unique battle, which means stuff can transfer quickly. Information is so readily available, um, that that's kind of a new a new and fresh fight. I think another thing to avoid in our thinking is we're just going to wait till they're a little bit older, just a little bit older, just a little bit older. If we start playing that game and don't make a a commitment to say, you know what? No, we're going to we're going to have this conversation. We're going to have it early. Um, then we're going to have to keep fighting against pushing back that line as to when we're going to have a conversation with our children. So I think it's really important to be to be purposeful in that. Um, there's a there's a ton of really good resources, but one that, um, comes to mind immediately by the holcomb's is a book called God Made All of Me. And it's actually, believe it or not. And this might shock you, or you might go, really? But this was a book that's written for, I think it's 3 to 5 year olds, and it's just an introduction to themselves and to their body.

Ryan Patterson: And this is what this is what God made. Isn't it wonderful that we serve a glorious God? Isn't he amazing in his creativity and in his design? You want to start giving your kids that kind of language early on? Another thing I think that that possibly the church has done a poor job at, if that's okay to say, is not helping our children understand that in the community of God, the relationship between man and woman is a familial relationship we're brothers and sisters in Christ. And that really when what God accomplished on the cross isn't... It's more than just what we have in our nuclear families. He purchased for us a spiritual family, and we want to help our children understand, hey, this is your brother or this is your sister in Christ. Aren't they amazing? Don't they have such awesome gifts that God has given them for his glory and for your good? As opposed to saying, and what I think we we have maybe run the danger of saying is like that person's dangerous to you. Now, I understand why we've said that, and I'm not trying to make light of being careful in the relationships between our children, between boys and girls and men and women. I'm not trying to make light of that at all. But again, I think our initial kind of knee jerk reaction is to immediately come at this thing from the negative, as opposed to building out a sexual ethic and a framework and a worldview that says, oh, hey, there's your sister in Christ, and you know why they're your sister in Christ? Because Jesus Christ purchased them on the cross and they're made in his image.

Ryan Patterson: And that's a beautiful thing. I want to fan that into flame for my children. Um, another maybe just really practical thing that, that we've tried doing. There's a there's a book called The Story of Me, and then it's got another piece of it. These are kind of a series of books that go with age. The other one is before I was born, and we kind of make just a special time out of it where we take our kids. Yes, even at ten, eight and six. Um, and we go get, like, doughnuts and we make it a momentous, joyous occasion to say, like, hey, we want to disciple you in this way. We want to show you what. God's good plan is for mommies and for daddies. What God's good plan is for brothers and sisters in Christ. We want to show you what that looks like. We want to rejoice in that with you. And so we start kind of that way and take them to a park and get a.

Ryan Patterson: I mean, we got them donuts and, and just enjoyed that time with them. Um, the other thing I think I would say to the parent who is struggling, working through, man, how do I even approach the topic of sex or sexuality or pornography or what have you with my child is it has to start out with a safe environment. Listen, your kids won't come and confess sin to you if you immediately put up a defensive wall of guilt and shame, like the words. How could you? Or how dare you? Or what were you thinking? Those aren't gospel words. Those are actually words of legalism. Those are words that say, man, I've lost sight of the gospel of Christ. That's not what God says to us. I quoted Psalm 103 today, this morning, this psalm. This is really clear. God doesn't deal with us according to our transgressions. He doesn't deal with us according to our iniquities. Rather, as a father shows compassion. So the Lord shows compassion to those who love him. And so we have to set up environments in our home. And it starts by just saying really clearly to our children, you can tell Mommy and Daddy anything. You can tell us everything. As a matter of fact, your mom and dad. Are just as needy and desperate for Jesus as you are.

Ryan Patterson: Your mom and dad struggle with sin just like you do. You aren't unique in your fight with sin, and so I think it's important that we again normalize that conversation for our children and not only normalize it, but normalize it into an environment where there's safety for open, open communication. Our kids aren't going to come to us. Um, like that's not going to be the natural posture. Matt, to your point, it's terrifying. It's terrifying. And so if you if you don't start that early on normalizing the safety that comes with confession, then it is going to be a hard fight later on. But it's not an impossible fight. And I mean, I don't know, maybe you're in here and going like, man, I haven't been as proactive in the sexual discipleship of my children as I want to be. Is there hope for me retroactively? And yes, absolutely, absolutely. Sometimes. Sometimes the best approach to our children listen, our kids are smart, especially the older they get. They see right through the facade. Sometimes it's just best to say, you know what? I haven't done a great job working through this with you. This is a topic that makes me kind of uncomfortable to talk about with you, but I love you, and I'm committed to your growth in Christ, and I want to have this conversation with you.

Matt Willis: I love that. Two things I want to highlight about what you're saying. Ryan is starting early and talking about God's incredible purpose behind it is so important, so often, especially from the church, we talk about sexual brokenness, or we talk about the ways in which sex is manifest in a bad way. Sex was created by God as the crown of intimacy within a marriage. It is so good. When we pursue sex outside of the way that God created this world for it to happen. That's where it gets off the rails, and it doesn't function as it's supposed to. But when we start the conversations at a younger age before, hopefully before, there's already sexual baggage of brokenness we can lead the conversation into this is a good and godly thing. Additionally, to Ryan's point about presenting Just this. What could be an uncomfortable conversation with your kids? My encouragement would be as you leave here today, think about Why is that a potentially fear inducing conversation to have? Is it out of wisdom? It's like ummm not the right time. There are only two and a half years old. Or is it from a place of fear? And if it's coming from a place of fear, why? Fear is not of God.

Matt Willis: What is creating fear within us so often? Like, okay, my story, for example, 12 years old, went over to a friend's house. That was my first exposure to inappropriate content. The odds of my parents timing it just perfectly to have a sex talk when I got home from that friend's house. Nil. Not going to happen. You never know when their first exposure, when their first perk of curiosity, of how are people made? You never know when that's going to happen. I will tell you that based on the latest research, most boys are exposed to pornography around the ages of 7 to 8, and girls are exposed closer to nine ish. Again, that's average across the board, sometimes younger, sometimes older. It's best to get out ahead of it. Now, one of the most common things that I see, like particularly in my own life, like my father multiple years into my recovery journey and Sarah and I in the thick of it, he calls me up and he's on the verge of tears. My father does not cry. He said, I need to confess something to you. When your mother and I caught you and I asked you one question, do you have any questions about what you saw? No follow up? No, nothing beyond that.

Matt Willis: And of course, I said no because I was horribly embarrassed, didn't know what to think. He said I wasn't able to be there for you because I was in the midst of the struggle, too, and didn't want your mother to find out. That relationship between my father and I was severed because of the betrayal that I experienced, and the Lord has since redeemed that. But I bring that up. For those of you parents, evaluate if you are feeling a fear of having that conversation. Is this is that because there's you don't know how your only experience with the sex talk is from your parents who didn't do a good job, and that's all you know. Okay. Sexual discipleship. Reach out to someone, read a book. Ryan referenced a number. There's a book in the library called How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex. Do something other than let the culture, like in my instance, influence your children and answer those obvious questions that kids are going to ask and also evaluate your heart. Am I pushing this? Am I kicking the can down the street? Because there's something in my life that I don't want to deal with?

Ryan Patterson: Yeah, that's really good. Matt. Thank you. Um, man, honesty and vulnerability are the key. I mean, they really are. Um, there's there's two things that I want to say before maybe we move on to some of the more practical, um, uh, things that are here in the, um, in the questions in terms of just like, resources and things that are available. Um, there are a couple other resources I did want to mention for for parents, in case you're interested. I'd mentioned that God Made All of Me, which is a great book. Good pictures, bad pictures, junior. Good pictures, bad pictures. Um, uh, those are those are two resources. Ones for younger ones for a little older. Uh, my good friend Patrick Carmichael, who just spoke here a couple of weeks ago, his wife writes for a blog called sex in the gospel. And it's a fantastic, fantastic resource. She is. She's brilliant. Uh, in this area, they have three kids as well, um, and are constantly in the conversation and has been just a really amazing resource. She's a brilliant woman, and we're just really, really thankful for her. So I would I would encourage that to you as well. There's a couple of things I want to I want to say, um, and it's the two different groups, uh, to add as you're helping your children understand, and maybe this is just good for you to hear if you are in a marriage.

Ryan Patterson:  Number one is that sex isn't about performance, it's about a relationship. That is a line out of a book that we use in our premarital counseling called Tying the Knot. And it's this fantastic book that looks at specifically in that chapter, intimacy with Jesus at the center. Because, again, this is about intimacy, which leads me to the next thing that I want to say to a different group of people. And if you're in here and you're going like, man, I'm not married, I'm not married and I'm not married, maybe just because I'm too young to be married or I'm not married because God hasn't brought that person into my life. I would love to be, but I'm just not. Um, maybe the question you have is, do I not experience the pinnacle of intimacy with Christ because I don't have a sexual partner? No, no, you can have intimacy, rich intimacy with Christ even if you aren't married. And that's something I want to be be careful of in our discussion tonight. Is it be easy to walk away from this going like, well, great man.

Ryan Patterson: So if I can get my sex life right and see it through the lens of the gospel, then I'll have the kind of intimacy with my spouse and with the Lord that is intended for me. But what if I don't have that readily available to me? Well, the good news is, is God again? Man, you guys said it so well. The whole story of redemption is about a God pursuing us, God pursuing an unfaithful bride, going after her and drawing her in over and over and over and purifying her and refining her because he is faithful and he is loving and he is caring. And so I just wanted to just wanted to say that before Maybe we moved on to some of the resource from the sexual integrity Ministry. Is is if you were in here and you're not, um, you're not married or you don't have a sexual relationship, you know, man, you can still experience the deep intimacy with God that he has purposed for you. Because, again, sex is just a it's just a it's a picture of that kind of intimacy that God wants to have with us. But intimacy with God is what we're after. That's ultimately what the gospel is about.

Sarah Willis: Yeah, we may not all experience the metaphor, but we all get to experience the real thing. Um, so I'm going to just share some of the resources that we have in the sexual Integrity Ministry for women. We have our first women's group called Betrayal and Beyond. That's going to be starting this fall. And that is for women who have experienced some form of sexual betrayal in their lives. Um, pornography, adultery, anything that has has led to that betrayal. Um, and this is going to be just a really awesome group. It's the first group that we're launching. So I'm just so excited about this and excited to see what the Lord does through it. And then we also want to launch groups for women who are struggling with sexual addiction. And I'll just be honest with you guys, we need more women who are willing to come forward and say, I struggle because this is an area right now that we just we don't have very many women who are coming forward. And so really, what we need there is just women willing to be the first to say, yes, I need help. And then our hope is to launch some of those groups as well.

Matt Willis: Thank you so much. And for both the women's groups as well as the men's groups, all of the groups are confidential. and similarly to what Sarah is saying right now, we are about to launch our fourth group For men geared towards healing from sex pornography, lust addiction, which is super exciting. Since the ministry launched almost a year ago, there are over 40 people not only from within the body of FCBC, but even beyond who are coming because they are saying this has gone far enough. I am ready to pursue the Lord and pursue healing. So my encouragement would be for the men in here. If you don't know what to do, reach out. There are basically three main extensions or ways in which this ministry manifests itself for the men in the church. The first one I would say is Faith Academy, that one is geared towards men and women, anyone over the age of 18, and that is essentially an eight week course. There's no discussion, there's no questions. There are no preconceived notion. If you show up, it's the goal would be that the entire church goes through that, and we'll make announcements as we approach the fall about when that's going to be happening. But typically it's during third service. Um, from October to the beginning of December. Then there's recovery groups, which I briefly alluded to, which are confidential groups of about eight guys, all of whom acknowledge that they struggle with sexual sin and are all pursuing healing and freedom together.

Matt Willis: So, again, no judgment, complete confidentiality and healing. additionally, our goal is to also launch betrayal groups. And I would echo what Sarah said the flip of on the women's side is there are men in our body who have been betrayed by their spouses sexual sin. We are not blind to that fact, and we do aspire to move in that direction where we have groups to help men who have been betrayed pursue healing, and additionally, for young adults who are under the age of 18, I would love to be able to launch groups geared towards them as well. We're not there yet, but the primary thing that we need at this point is for people to come forward and say, I'm ready to pursue healing. Now I want to close with an answer that I would assume most are wrestling with. Whether you're in your seat thinking, I really am struggling or I've been betrayed, the question often looms is it worth it? Is it worth digging into my husband's past and the hurt that that will cause me to pursue... What? Is it worth exposing my sin? To what end? Is it worth it? Because I will be the first to admit. Hardest thing I have ever done was open up to my wife and then open up to my wife the next time, and then open up to my wife the next time.

Matt Willis: The healing journey is incredibly difficult. Whether you are the betrayed spouse or whether you are the struggling spouse. And so I want to directly answer the question, is it worth it? Is it worth the struggle? Because, I mean, the follow up question would be if I'll struggle regardless of exposing, for example, my sin, why go through the pain and shame of confessing it? It seems like a logical question. Or another one. Another question would be why didn't God heal me when I prayed? If God hasn't healed me at this point, what good will confessing to other brothers. Or if you're a woman, my sisters, what good will that actually do? And when I look to answer that question in my own life, why didn't God answer the prayer as I wanted it to be answered with, just as I call it the miracle pill prayer. God, please heal me. Like right now, in large part because I don't want to deal with the consequences of my sin. Why doesn't God answer our prayers like that? Typically. God is about so much more than just managing our behavior. See, what I gained from exposing and walking through the healing journey was not just freedom over sin. I'm not saying there's never any temptation, but significant deliverance. Years worth of sobriety from pornography, in addition to the behavior change is. Some of what I've seen is the independence that I felt become dependence on God.

Matt Willis: If that was the only reason that he allowed me to struggle for over a decade. It's well worth it. Like, what is our posture toward God or what should it be? But I didn't only gain that. The shame that I felt became confidence in God. I saw God work and do the impossible. It took a whole lot more pain and agony than I ever imagined. But now I know that the Lord can do anything, because I have seen how helplessly lost like me left to my own devices. I've seen how far that rabbit hole goes. Correction. I've seen it go really far and I don't care to see it go any further. It turned cowardice into leadership. I, as I mentioned, I would keep people at arm's length. Year one of our marriage, I kept Sarah at arm's length for fear that any conversation would turn meaningful or deep. And now I have the privilege of having real conversations with brothers on a almost daily basis, where we're able to go deep and build meaningful friendships. Some of my best friends have developed from going through the fire of healing. It's kind of like when brothers, you know, when guys go off to war and they experience that together, that friendship is forged deeper than you could possibly imagine in times of peace. And again, that's what I hear time and time again from these men who share their experiences in these recovery groups, is they never experienced friendship to this level.

Matt Willis: The arrogance that I felt about my ability to manage my behavior to white knuckle it turned into humility. I am keenly aware when Matt tries to do things on his own. I am keenly aware at how incompetent I am. I wasn't before. My arrogance turned into humility. My isolation. Again, everyone at arm's length. If I let anyone know, they'll reject me. That isolation turned into that fellowship that John is talking about. I have such incredibly deep friendships, not just with brothers, but with my wife. I am madly in love with my wife, and that doesn't come from like Ryan was referring to. That doesn't come from trying to manage performance, whether we're talking about performance in your behaviors, managing sexual sin or in the bedroom That level of intimacy comes from again, pursuing freedom, as well as pursuing intimacy in all areas of your relationships and living authentically. And like I was mentioning, the marital distance that we experienced turned into a deep intimacy. See, God wants to do so much more than just change our behavior. He wants to use what Satan intended for evil for his glory. So is it worth it? It's the hardest thing I've ever been through, but it was so worth it. I'd like to close out in prayer. Unless anyone wants to.

Sarah Willis: I heard an analogy recently that just really blessed me, so I'm going to share it. But those of us who are in Christ Jesus are bowling with bumpers, and no matter how badly we throw that ball, Christ is going to get us down that alley and hit the pins. It might be a bumpy ride, but he will not let you end up in the gutter.

Ryan Patterson: Amen. That's so good. Oh, man. Man, you should have told me that on Saturday night. I would have used it this morning. Um, just real, real briefly too. Um, just just to make you aware, we also have a counseling ministry here at Faith Community Bible Church. And these members of the counseling ministry, whom I know personally are absolutely, incredibly godly and wise people who have received some training through CCEF and love sitting with saints and sufferers and sinners in unique, um, extenuating circumstances and hardships. And so we just also want to make you aware of that, too. Um, that that love walking through unique hardships with the body and providing love and care and wisdom, resource and discipleship in those senses and wise counsel. So just wanted to make make you aware of that too.

Matt Willis: That's awesome. Thank you Ryan. So in closing, where do we go from here? The four of us will make ourselves available and potentially others from the sexual integrity or the prayer ministry. Um, up at the front here, if any of you want to talk, process, ask additional questions, pray, confess whatever you want. We are making ourselves available to you beyond tonight. My email address is on the Men's Ministry page under the Sexual Integrity Ministry. And if you want to get Ahold of Sarah, you can reach out to the church office and they'll funnel the emails to you. As Sarah mentioned, we're looking to launch the first group geared towards women. And so with that is going to come all the infrastructure, including her contact information on the page, but don't do nothing. Love you guys and really glad to have the opportunity to share the evening with you. And I'm going to go ahead and close out in prayer. Father God, if nothing else comes forth this evening, we ask that you would make us keenly aware of our desperation, not because primarily we struggle with sexual sin, but because of our sin nature. God. I know from my experience I can thank you for the struggle, because it reminds me of how desperate I am for you and how incapable I am of any good in my own strengths. Lord Isaiah says it so well that all of our even good actions are as filthy rags if they're not done in Christ.

Matt Willis: Lord, anything I'd seek to do apart from you is nothing. So, Lord, I ask that you would be moving within all of our lives, all of our hearts. Convicting or convicting needs to be happening. Healing where healing needs to be happening, and making people and marriages whole through the power of your gospel. God, we ask that. Lord, I'm just reminded of the verse where Jesus says, what good is it for a man to gain the whole world and yet forfeit his soul? God, what good is it for us to make it through the full length of our marriage and never get caught? If we forfeit our soul, What good is it, even if we are able to control our are behaviors and not quote unquote, sexual sin. If in the process we are not falling more madly in love with you. Father God, we ask that you would make us ever more keenly aware of our desperate need for a Savior and fall more deeply in love with you in the process. Lord, we thank you for the opportunity to gather tonight to have a real, honest conversation, and we look forward to further opportunities to just continue pursuing holiness, pursuing the good gift of intimacy in the way that you have ordained for it to be. In your loving name, Amen. Thank you all.